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Interviewer (Ms. Elizabeth Graham Weymouth):
So, you are just about ready to go to the United States Prime
Minister.
Prime Minister (Dr. Manmohan Singh): Yes, in four
days’ time.
Interviewer :What would you like to accomplish in the
United States when you see President Obama?
Prime Minister: We are strategic partners. We have good
relations. But there is the new Administration in America. We
are now in our second five-year term. So, it is appropriate
that I should renew our partnership. I sincerely hope that we
can work together with President Obama and his Administration
to build an enduring partnership based on equality and mutual
understanding for promoting greater security and sustained
development in the world.
Interviewer : So, that’s your aim when you go to
Washington,
Prime Minister: That is, to put it succinctly.
Interviewer : But people say, for instance, that you
might announce a partnership in space, that you might announce
a new green revolution. Can you share with me and with my
readers some of the thoughts you have on how you see the
possibility of India and the United States cooperating in the
future, Sir?
Prime Minister: First of all, we had a watershed and a landmark
agreement with the United States on nuclear cooperation. We
would like to operationalise it and ensure that the objectives
for the nuclear deal are realised in full merit. My sincere
hope is that we can persuade the US Administration to be more
liberal when it comes to transfer of dual-use technologies to
us. Now that we are strategic partners these restrictions make
no sense. India has an impeccable record of not participating
in any proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. So, that
is my number one concern.
Interviewer : So, you are talking about the consent
agreement that the President would have to sign and send to
Congress?
Prime Minister: That is right.
Interviewer : And on your side, I believe, your
Parliament would have to pass a liability agreement. Is that
correct?
Prime Minister: We will do that. Our Cabinet will be
taking a decision. I do not see any difficulties in honouring
our commitments.
Interviewer : So, you are concerned about the US
honouring the consent agreement?
Prime Minister: We have no worries, but we would like a
positive reaffirmation of this Administration to carry forward
that process.
Interviewer : To carry forward the civil nuclear deal?
Prime Minister: Yes. I also said that this is a partnership for
sustained and sustainable development of India and the new
global world order which is in search of a new equilibrium.
India and the United States could be partners in refocusing
our attention on an equitable, balanced, global order.
Interviewer: What does that mean exactly?
Prime Minister: Well, there are several components of
sustained development. There is the energy cooperation - we
would like to strengthen energy cooperation with the United
States - clean coal technologies, renewable energy resources.
Similarly there is concern for food security. We would like to
have a second green revolution in our country. In the first
green revolution technologies which were by-product of the US
public sector played a major role in transforming Indian
agriculture. We need another green revolution to carry forward
that process still further. Therefore, cooperation in the
field of agriculture, cooperation in the field of science and
technology, cooperation in the field of health, ensuring
cooperation between our two countries in dealing with
pandemics, these are all the concerns that I have, and I
propose to share these concerns with President Obama and hope
that we both can reaffirm our commitment to carry forward
these processes.
Interviewer: I got an email this morning from Gen.
Petraeus who said he never met you but he sent you his
regards.
Prime Minister: Please give him my regards.
Interviewer: I guess the obvious question comes up of how
you see Afghanistan from your point of view. Are you concerned
that the US will not stay involved in this conflict? And what
are the implications for India?
Prime Minister: I sincerely hope that the United States
and the global community will stay involved in Afghanistan. A
victory for the Taliban in Afghanistan would have catastrophic
consequences for the world, particularly for South Asia, for
Central Asia, for Middle East. The triumph of religious
fundamentalism in Afghanistan would have far-reaching
consequences for peace and stability in the world as well.
Interviewer: And that is what you think would happen if
we do not go through with our commitment.
Prime Minister: Let me put it this way. The religious
fundamentalism in the 1980s was used to defeat the Soviet
Union. It is the same group of people. If they defeated the
Soviet Union and now they defeat the other major power, this
would embolden them in a manner which could have catastrophic
consequences for the world at large.
Interviewer: So, if they defeated now the United States
in other words, it would embolden them so they could do
anything?
Prime Minister: Yes, that is right.
Interviewer: So, that is your concern about the future
of Afghanistan.
Prime Minister: We have of course no immediate concerns because
we are victims of terrorism. The extremist ideologies of the
type that the Taliban have, if not checked, could destabilise
our country as well.
Interviewer: In other words you would like to see the
President send the troops as Gen. Mc Crystal has demanded.
Prime Minister: I am not an expert on military
strategies. I am not well versed with what is the military
situation on the ground though I got to hear that there are
worries about the military situation. I have no fixed views
about the amount or number of troops that the US would have.
But it is very important that both for providing security and
for providing sustained development the United States and the
global community should stay engaged with Afghanistan.
Interviewer: Do you think that people in the US
understand the connection between Al Qaeda and the Taliban in
Afghanistan? Do you believe there is a close connection?
Prime Minister: There is a close connection. I mean
they are the offshoots, they are chips of the same block.
Interviewer: You know some people say, “Oh! They are
not”, but I understood they were very close, as you said.
Prime Minister: That is my honest view.
Interviewer: How do you feel about President Karzai?
There has been a lot of criticism of him in America. I believe
India has been supportive.
Prime Minister: Let me say that President Karzai’s regime is
not perfect. There are imperfections, there are problems of
improving governance. But you cannot transform Afghanistan
overnight. It is going to be a long-term affair. Democracy as
the west understands may be not possible to introduce in a
short period of time in Afghanistan. But it is a fact that
millions of Afghan children, millions of girl children are now
in schools when none was in school when the Taliban was in
power. For safeguarding human freedoms one has to take a
balanced view. Now that President Karzai has been re-elected,
I think the time has come when the global community should
rally behind him to give Afghanistan a stable, purposeful, and
relatively corruption-free administration.
Interviewer: Now, your neighbour to the north,
Pakistan. How do you assess the situation there? Some people
say that the civil government there is really losing power.
How do you see the situation?
Prime Minister: We are concerned with the rise of
terrorism in Pakistan. We have been the victims of
Pakistan-sponsored terrorism for a long period of time. Now,
if in addition, the Taliban and Al Qaeda type of terror, which
in the past was located in the FATA area of Pakistan, gets
transferred to the mainland of Pakistan - that is Punjab,
which is next door to our Punjab - it has very serious
consequences for our own security.
Interviewer: So, you say that the sort of instability in the
FATA ...
Prime Minister: We would not like terrorism to lead to
a situation where the civilian government is only a nominal
government.
Interviewer: Do not you think that is the situation
right now?
Prime Minister: I am not saying that is the situation
now. We would like democracy to succeed in Pakistan. We would
like the normal processes of democracy to operate in full
measure in Pakistan. But obviously now that the Al Qaeda and
the terrorists have a grip over several parts of Pakistan,
that is a cause of worry to us.
Interviewer: It is terrible.
Prime Minister: It is terrible.
Interviewer: So, it is impossible to know but do you
think that Pakistanis are trying as hard as they can? Or do
you think they are not trying as hard as they can?
Prime Minister: Let me say that our feeling is that as
far as Afghanistan is concerned I am not sure whether the US
and Pakistan have the same objective. Pakistan would like
Afghanistan to be under its control, under its strong
influence. They would like the United States to get out as
soon as possible.
Interviewer: Pakistan would like the US to get out.
Prime Minister: So, the US objective and Pakistan’s
objective it appears to me are not the same.
Interviewer: Because Pakistan would like the United States
to get out and the United States would like Pakistan to be
under some control. Is that what you are saying, Prime
Minister?
Prime Minister: What I am saying is that the United
States objectives are to get Pakistan’s support to deal with
the Taliban in Afghanistan. But I do not see Pakistan is
wholeheartedly in support of action against the Taliban in
Afghanistan. They are of course taking action against Taliban
when they threaten the supremacy of the army. But that is it.
Interviewer: In other words they are only taking action
against the Pakistani Taliban.
Prime Minister: That is true.
Interviewer: So, decidedly, possibly, India and the
United States are able to cooperate in coming up with some
kind of cooperation against the enemies of both India and the
United States, which are the rest of the Taliban?
Prime Minister: Let me say that we have supported the
strong presence of the international community in Afghanistan.
We have provided substantial amount of resources, about 1.2
billion dollars, for the reconstruction and development of
Afghanistan. We are of course not able to provide troops, but
we would like to do more for reconstruction and development of
Afghanistan. We believe we can do more in this area and do it
more effectively than many other aid donors of Afghanistan.
Interviewer: You mean, for example, deliver supplies to,
say, US and NATO troops? Or is that a bad example?
Prime Minister: We are active in building
infrastructure in Afghanistan. We are involved in
strengthening schools, education, healthcare, electricity.
These are the areas where we have capacity to help
Afghanistan, and we would like to do more.
Interviewer: I think people in America, reasonable
people, actually do not understand what we are doing in
Afghanistan. I would be curious to see what you think when you
are in the United States. I am not talking about people in the
State Department or the Defence Department but the general
public which I think will be a problem for the President.
Prime Minister: I hope that the US public understands
where it all started, after 9/11. If Al Qaeda did not have a
home in Afghanistan, maybe 9/11 would never have taken place.
God forbid if Al Qaeda gets another strong foothold in
Afghanistan once again!
Interviewer: And that is what you believe will happen?
Prime Minister: Well, it could happen. I am not an
astrologer. But there is a great worry that it could happen.
Interviewer: I think it is frustrating because there is
not much understanding, I would say. America has very turned
inward right now. Do you think there will be a civil war in
Afghanistan if we withdraw?
Prime Minister: There is that danger.
Interviewer: From your point of view I assume that the
most important thing is the terror groups in Pakistan.
Prime Minister: As I said we are victims of
Pakistan-aided, abetted, and inspired terrorism for nearly 25
years. We would like the United States to use all its
influence with Pakistan to desist from that path. Pakistan has
nothing to fear from India. I have said this on many public
occasions that the destinies of our two countries are
interlinked. We should both be waging a war against poverty,
ignorance and disease which afflict millions and millions of
people in both our countries. It is a tragedy that Pakistan
has come to this path of using terror as an instrument of
state policies. We sincerely hope that the United States will
use all its influence with the authorities in Pakistan
including the armed forces of Pakistan to desist from this
path.
Interviewer: You have a good point I have to say. But
it is going to be very interesting to see what you come up
with after your trip to Washington. On the US-India
relationship, you said in the beginning, counter terrorism
cooperation, space cooperation, do you see those on the
agenda?
Prime Minister: Nuclear cooperation, cooperation in the field
of education, closer linkages between the university systems
of our two countries, cooperation in the field of health,
working together to devise new vaccines.
Interviewer: How do you feel about Copenhagen and the
emissions? Do you feel that we should send you equipment to
deal with emissions?
Prime Minister: In accordance with the United Nations
Framework Convention on Climate Change and the Kyoto Protocol
the developed countries have an obligation to perform with
regard to reduction of emissions. And I sincerely hope that
Copenhagen would reaffirm that. I know there are difficulties.
But without the United States giving a lead I do not see a
deal at Copenhagen can become a reality. On our part we
recognise our own responsibilities. Although our emissions are
one/tenth of the United States’, about one/tenth of the
global average, if I remember correctly, we recognise that
dealing with climate change is the responsibility of entire
humanity. So, we have put in place a National Action Plan to
deal with climate change. We have eight Climate Change
Missions which if they succeed will bring about a significant
reduction in emissions as compared with Business As Usual
situation.
Interviewer: Interesting! A lot of people in the US worry
very much, and it is a subject of great talk, about Iran
getting a nuclear weapon? I know that India has a much better
relationship with Iran than we do. Are you concerned? I know
another undeclared site was just found yesterday.
Prime Minister: I had yesterday the Iranian Foreign
Minister with me.
Interviewer: In Delhi?
Prime Minister: Yes.
Interviewer: How exciting!
Prime Minister: He was in Delhi yesterday.
Interviewer: Ah! For a change!
Prime Minister: We did discuss the nuclear question.
Let me say the message that he left with me was that they feel
encouraged by the messages they are receiving from the Obama
Administration. And I see a glimmer of hope in what the
Iranian Minister told me yesterday.
Interviewer: Well, I guess so. It depends how you look
on it. It depends what your aim is. Is your aim to stop Iran
from getting a nuclear weapon or not?
Prime Minister: Let me say that we have taken a
consistent position. Iran is a signatory to the NPT. It must
have all the privileges that go with being a member of the NPT
like peaceful uses of nuclear energy. It has also all the
obligations that go with their membership of the NPT.
Therefore, I think nuclear weapon is not an option which Iran
is entitled to under its membership of the NPT.
Interviewer: You have much more information than I do, but
it looks to all observers from the outside - including the
IAEA which just found another undeclared site yesterday - it
certainly looks - and appears even from the IAEA report - as
if they are pursuing a nuclear weapons programme.
Prime Minister: I had the pleasure of the Director
General of the International Atomic Energy Agency visiting us
a few weeks ago. And he was not so sure that Iran is
definitely working towards a nuclear weapon.
Interviewer: : It is interesting. The report that they
issued yesterday - I do not know if you saw it, I could not
sleep so I saw it in the middle of the night - was very very
critical, the IAEA report.
Prime Minister: I have not seen that.
Interviewer: Well, unless you cannot sleep there is no
reason you would. But they found another undeclared site and
there was a particularly critical report issued. Now, I know
that you were engaged in talks with Gen. Musharraf when he was
Head of Pakistan for two years. Then, as far as I can
understand, you went to Sharm el-Sheikh and you made some
decorations that you hoped, just like you have just said, that
Pakistan and India could maybe reach some kind of peace one
day. Are there any kind of steps now or do you feel that the
situation ...
Prime Minister: Let me say that we are committed to resolve all
outstanding issues with Pakistan through purposeful,
meaningful, bilateral negotiation. Our only condition is that
Pakistan should not allow its territory to be used for acts of
terror directed against India. This is the commitment that
Gen. Musharraf had given to my predecessor when he visited
Pakistan in 2004. This is the commitment that was given to me
whenever I met Gen. Musharraf. This is the commitment given to
me at Sharm el-Sheikh by Prime Minister Gilani. If Pakistan
really honours that commitment, we can go back to purposeful,
meaningful negotiations to resolve all outstanding issues
between ourselves.
Interviewer: So, if you look at Mumbai and the
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, they are obviously not honouring the
agreement.
Prime Minister: As far as the perpetrators of Mumbai
massacre are concerned, they had taken some steps but not
enough. As far as the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba is concerned, under a
different name Jamat-ud-Dawa ...
Interviewer: They just left that guy out of jail,
didn’t they?
Prime Minister: They have not put Hafiz Saeed in
prison. The courts have released him. That is the excuse. But
from our standpoint, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, Jamat-ud-Dawa, Hafiz
Saeed, Masood Azhar, are the perpetrators of terror in our
country, and Pakistan has the obligation to take effective
action to prevent them from continuing to indulge in these
undesirable acts.
Interviewer: Do you worry about another Mumbai?
Prime Minister: Every day I receive intelligence
reports that the terrorists based in Pakistan are planning
other similar acts.
Interviewer: Terrible! The terrorists based in Pakistan
are planning more?
Prime Minister: Yes, that is right.
Interviewer: Are there any contacts between your
Government and the Pakistani Government?
Prime Minister: We have normal contacts. Our High
Commission is there. They have a High Commission here.
Interviewer: But it is not like that channel that you
had open.
Prime Minister: But we have very good cooperation with
the US and we get lot of information from friendly countries,
and that points to persistence of these terrorist groups –
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, Jamat-ud-Dawa – in acts of terrorism
directed against our country.
Interviewer: How do you see China? Do you see it as a
threat, do you see it as a trading partner, or both?
Prime Minister: Let me say that the peaceful rise of
China creates new opportunities for the world to engage China.
China has emerged as a major trading partner with us, and we
welcome that. But we have problems with China with regard to
our boundary dispute. We both have discussed this. We are
engaged in a discussion of the boundary dispute. Both of us
are agreed that it is a complicated issue, it will take time
to resolve it, and that pending the resolution of the boundary
dispute both of us have an obligation to maintain peace and
tranquillity along the borders. I have said this in China and
elsewhere, we believe that there is enough space in the world
to accommodate the development ambitions of both India and
China. But there will be certain areas where there will be
competition in trade, investment; and that is healthy.
Interviewer: That is interesting. Since you are an
economist, do you believe that the economic weakness caused by
the disaster that struck us last year has eroded the United
States’ leadership role in Asia or affected it?
Prime Minister: I sincerely hope that the United States
will recover from last year’s disaster. With the
entrepreneurial skills of the US business class, the
innovation, the US educational system which encourages
innovation and invention, I have no doubt that the US would
overcome this temporary setback. We would like the United
States to succeed in that effort.
Interviewer: Some people are saying even in the US that
we have definitely lost some of our power, and some of our
leadership ability due to the fact that we have such huge
deficits.
Prime Minister: I have heard many times before. When I
was in the United States in the late 1960s there was Prof.
Robert Triffin at Yale who wrote a famous book Gold & the
Dollar Crisis saying the dollar’s role as a reserve currency
has come to an end and the United States must recognise this.
That was said in 1968. Then of course came 1971 when the US
went off the Gold Exchange Tender. But the United States
bounced back. I hope that the same thing will happen once
again.
Interviewer: But if you look at the objective facts,
and you know much more than I do, I spent a lot of time with
businessmen and they are all so worried.
Prime Minister: I think it is good that they worry
about it because excesses of the type which characterised the
US banking system last year should have been a cause of worry.
They should have been detected much earlier.
Interviewer: You have got a point. But India seems to
have basically ...
Prime Minister: First of all our banking system is better
regulated. We do not allow our banking system to invest
heavily in those types of assets.
Interviewer: You mean derivatives, CDOs, and squared
and things like that. Your economy basically escaped from
this.
Prime Minister: We are affected because our exports are
affected. Our export growth rate has sharply declined. What is
more is that the flow of capital has also been affected. But
more recently, capital has started coming back to our country.
Overall, before the crisis our growth rate was 8.5 to 9 per
cent per annum in the previous four years.
Interviewer: Unbelievable!
Prime Minister: Since then it has declined to 6.7 per
cent. This year it will be about 6.5 per cent. We believe that
on the basis of domestic demand, both consumption demand and
investment demand, in two years’ time we can go back to a 9
per cent growth rate. I say it with confidence because our
domestic savings rate is as high as 35 per cent of our GDP.
Interviewer: : You are kidding! How did you manage that?
Prime Minister: Well, I think the Indian people are
very thrifty.
Interviewer: : That is amazing!
Prime Minister: And with a capital output ratio of 4:1,
we should over a period of time be able to sustain a growth
rate of 8 to 9 per cent.
Interviewer: : That is unbelievable! If we could trade
places with you! That is amazing! What is your take on the
Maoist insurgency? What about the areas that people say are
out of control? Your friend Montek Singh Ahluwalia was telling
me last night that there are these forests and people are
living in them and so on and so forth and then there are
Maoists.
Prime Minister: It is certainly true that benefits of
development have not reached all sections of our population.
There are tribal areas in Central India where poverty is
acute, and that is taken advantage of by these antisocial
elements whom we call as the Maoists. We will tackle them.
This is a dual strategy. First of all in these distant parts
of our country the law and order machinery of the state cannot
reach early. We are trying to strengthen that. Simultaneously
we will ensure that the fruits of development hereafter are
more equitably distributed so that the social discontent and
unrest which is the result of this unequal development is also
taken care of.
Interviewer: You mean some law and order and some
spreading of the wealth would be the way out there?
Prime Minister: Accelerated development, yes.
Interviewer: When you look at your country and what you
would like to achieve in the next few years, what is that?
Prime Minister: A growth rate of about 9 per cent per
annum, and to ensure that this growth is an inclusive growth,
that the benefits of development reach out to all sections of
our population, that the disparities between rural India and
urban India are reduced and ultimately eliminated.
Interviewer: Do you feel that you have made a difference as
Prime Minister to your country? What do you think your legacy
would be? Do you think that you have changed this country?
Prime Minister: I hope I have made some difference.
That is for posterity to judge.
Interviewer: Well, what a hard job! Are you worried at
all about the Test Ban Treaty which President Obama and his
Administration seem very intent on pushing through the Senate?
Prime Minister: Why should we be worried? We are not
worried at all. We have a unilateral moratorium on testing
imposed voluntarily. We stand by that. And we would like to
work with President Obama to promote the cause of global
nuclear disarmament, a world free of nuclear weapons. I think
that is a world which has been the dream of our leaders from
Jawaharlal Nehru to Rajiv Gandhi. We would like to work with
all likeminded countries to achieve that goal.
Interviewer: Is your last dream to build an infrastructure
in India?
Prime Minister: Infrastructure is a primary requirement
of sustained development. We need to invest lot more money,
lot more resources in roads, in ports, in airports, in
irrigation, in urban infrastructures. These are our top
priorities. That is what I meant that if we get our
infrastructure right, our savings rate would enable us to
sustain a growth rate of about 8 to 9 per cent.
Interviewer: But the infrastructure is a priority.
Prime Minister: It is a priority.
Interviewer: Prime Minister, there is just no way I can
thank you enough for your time. I know how busy you are
getting ready for your trip.
Prime Minister: Well it is a great pleasure having you
with us.
Interviewer: No, it is the other way round. You are
such a wonderful country.
Prime Minister: And I hope you will come more often.
Interviewer: Thank you very much and I wish you such
good luck with your ...
(Concluded)
New Delhi
November 16, 2009
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